Tryst with a "Rationalist"/Atheist Part 2
As you will start seeing the modus operandi of these "Free Thinkers". I say modus operandi, because I've seen these kind of debaters too many times before and they are all the same, they will ignore ALL the facts thrown at them, and bluntly call everything they have no answer for as quackery and non-sense, and accuse you of "repeating the same thing", in all the meaningless places to the point that you are left with an astounding expression on your face as to how do you respond to them when they say there is no elephant in the room while having kept their eyes closed and refuse to see... they just refuse to research anything... and I am not going to spoon feed them... well as you will see... I tried a little bit of spoon feeding, coz he is still my friend.
His response:
His response:
Hi vinny,
sorry for the late reply.
my santana understanding or misunderstanding is not the question.
i just looked it up on google. the - so old - i dont know how old- can
very simply be dated.
history of india can be dated back to about 3000 b.c. mohenjo daro is
carbon dated to 2600 b.c. and there are no hindu deities found in the ruins.
you can argue that it was hindu and the santana was very much in vogue,
but there is no archaeological proof.
however for your sake lets take it that it was a hindu civilazation.
as no sign or symbol exists there Santana was created later.
in glebekli tepi the oldst civilazition found in turkey is dated back to 11,000
years a good 5000 years older than egyptian civilization. they were stone
carvings with huge monuments, that would have taken them decades to
build.
needless to say that this santana stuff is not heard of in other ancient
civilization- except India.
my thinking is it was created around chanakya's time and in the grand
manner of hindus called it -without end and without beginning.
you name a kid -ananth. does not mean he will not have an end.
before the mauruyas, history becomes foggy and slips
into mythology.
any statement made by einstien or carl sagan or the three stooges is
not important.
picking and choosing a statement to suit your argument does not
make the point valid.
as a logical thinker i would examine any statement made by anyone
by it;s merits and proof offered to validate it.
after all, god has never been seen or heard. he has come in visions to
many long beards in many forms often contradicting himself in his
various messages, caused untold misery and death on his name and
only resulting in closing man's mind to logic.
everyone is an atheist to another man;s religion.
i bet the christianity and islamic stuff is ridicules to you.
i urge you to read ancient greek thinkers. when chanakya was writing
artha sashtra, a book of economics with such social thinking as
what needs to be done in intercast marriages, Heraclitus was asking
a question- why is zeus the god of lightning striking down his own temple?
is it because he is angry with himself? or is it because lightning
is independent of him.
My Response to him:
No issues, as I said, this is a fruitless discussion leading to nothing…am in no hurry. I am enjoying the clarity you are forcing me to provide, sometimes it makes me solidify some things in my own mind. It only is strengthening my case as I see it.
Back to the response:
I am not sure why you are jumping topics randomly. Or so I feel. In the email before this you started defining what Sanatana Dharma means, faultily, to which I responded why the name formed. Now you have an issue with why the name formed. So let me explain what I think about that. Bear in mind, the reasoning I am giving is my opinion, and no one can definitively give you the person who coined it. The definitive history of Sanatana Dharma is practically untraceable.
So, fine the name formed because as a practice Indians are not good history keepers. So from whatever the modern historians have come up with, the Upanishads have been around since 1000 BC. Remember, in India, the Vedas and the Upanishads were never committed to written artifacts for a long time. Now I don’t know how they come up with the 1000 BC date, but as you can read everywhere, it’s all still guess work, there is no definitive answer that everyone agrees to. It’s impossible to guess how old the Vedas and the Upanishads are. There just is no way for it especially because they have passed down generation after generation orally. So yeah, it’s still so old that I don’t know how old. You must have heard about the 12000 year old city found in 2001 off the coast of Gujarat, which history channel speculates that it might be the sunken Dwaraka.
You also mention that some civilization in Turkey doesn’t have any reference to Hinduism. Neither do the 100 or so tribes in the current world that have never come in contact with civilization, have a clue about the scientific progress of the modern man. Does that say anything about the modern scientific?
Talking of Mohenjadaro: Well, again, the grass roots implementation/rituals/interpretation of Sanatana Dharma has gone through a lot of change over the years. As philosophers came by, as society changed, people and communities adapted the religion and its rituals. Also, over the years through many wars religious places have been smashed by invaders, what do we know about Mohenjadoro so definitely to claim there was no form of any school of thought of Hinduism prevalent there? Why are you making definitive claims of what was NOT there? And again, how does it matter that Mohenjadaro didn’t follow any form of Hinduism. How does that take away the sanity of the philosophy presented in Advaita Vedanta?
So let me clarify this concept of “no-beginning no end” in Hinduism. The concept is with respect to, jagat, to creation. Now creation doesn’t start and end with planet earth. Creation is creation, jayate gacchete iti jagat. One that comes and goes is Jagat. So matter gets created and destroyed. So the universe is Jagat. And as you know modern science is clear about infinite universes. There is a phrase commonly used while addressing Lord Vishnu, Akhilanda Koti Brahmanda nayaka ( leader/king of infinite universes). Modern physics is claiming that there might be multiple big bangs happening all the time. This universe we are in, is just expanding and then it will collapse. Its an endless cycle. Yes, its been told as part of the Vedantic Philosophies so far back that man doesn’t know how long back.
May be no one ever heard of Sanatana Dharma except India and surrounding (up to Iran, Saivism had existed ). It’s true. I am not sure what the point is? In fact in India foreigners were considered impure/ sudras. Sanatana Dharma is distinctly Indian. Distinctly from Bharat, and Bharatvarsha is defined as everything south of the Himalayas and north of the ocean, east of the Indus river.
First you liked the study comparing low IQ with religiousness and forwarded it to everyone and now that Einstein, Carl Sagan and all the other great scientists of the world have something positive to say in favor of Indians, in favor of Vedanta, they become the three stooges. How does it NOT matter? I think it matters. It matters because if you are talking about intelligently questioning dogma. You bet these smart people par none have done so. All the people I listed are smarter than ALL THE CURRENT WORLD COMBINED. Would you debate that with me? So the smartest people on the world have no issue with Vedanta. The current mediocre atheist crown does? Hope this sparks a reality check amongst atheists.
You talk about God has never been seen or heard: Really? I think that is what you are fighting against. There 100’s of people who have claimed to have seen/heard. But those are the people you are saying they haven’t. I find that ludicrous first of all, because, I mean, I am telling you I saw it, but you are telling me I didn’t see it. ……….uugghhh.. think abt that for a second.
Moreover, coming to the proof of God: Please go over my blog post: The problem with Atheists and the proof of God
Purushasookta says: This entity called God, cannot be known through the human mind, cannot be understood by the human intellect, cannot be described in human vernacular. As far as human mind can think and imagine, this God Entity has spread 10 times the edge of human capability. ( common now 10 times is only to indicate the vastness, hope you don’t get stuck on the numbers and take this as the size of how Big this God Entity is)
You might then ask me, how then if God entity is so huge are people claiming they have seen God:
The same masters also told us “vedahametam purusham mahantam..aaditya varnam, tapasastu pare, sarvaani roopani vichitya dheeraha,………..or so it goes a bit more…..”
That following the practices suggested through the vedas (and hence the Upanishads) if you seek God, He will appear in the form you seek.
As a student of science and rationality, you might want to take a clue from Einstein before asking the proof of God and saying there is NO GOD:
According to Prince Hubertus, Einstein said, "In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views."[18]
--- This is in the same URL I had send earlier.
Talking of Christianity and #$%: I being a student of Advaita, I do find complete blind faith religions/ schools of thoughts incomplete, and that is true of Visishtadvaita and similar blind faith schools of Vedanta). In fact how is blind faith even a philosophy? I’ve never understood that part. The violence and rigidity of the people following these religions has actually also been a part of similar blind faith schools of Thoughts in India leading to the wars between Shaivites and Vaishnavites for about 200 years at the beginning of the last millennium, just like Shias and Sunnis of the current day. I think it is the result of these philosophies being so incomplete that induces the foolishness of ppl. And as I have suggested in the past, blind faith is for most ppl who can’t think far enough which results in blind faith based schools of thoughts having larger following and thus leading to a fraction of them, which in pure numbers becomes large enough to cause damage harm and violence against people who disagree with them.
I don’t need to read greek Thinkers. Right now as I see it, the claims of Advaita Vedanta is being proven by Science. I keep saying this, modern science is important because without it, I might have gone and read all the different thinkers because without science giving us any clues, all are just opinions. Right now Advaita is arguably not an opinion. Even if you say it’s an opinion like other opinions, I’ll have to point you back to science again, and say there at least is circumstantial evidence to the fundamental philosophy presented in advaita Vedanta. I will look for options when advaita doesn’t stand a chance and has holes to poke in. It has no holes. It’s a bold claim. But it has no holes bigger than any other philosophy, or science itself has. As I said earlier, from the sum total of what we as humans know, Advaita Vedanta is the best we have. Until something else comes along, I am sticking to it.
Chanakya was a social philosopher, I don’t know about Heraculitus, but based on his deliberation , he seems like a theist philosopher comparing them is apples to oranges. I think Heraculitus is a moron to be deliberating on something so use less that ‘ not even worth talking about it, I would say the same if you brought some Indian philosopher who was contemplating something about Indra. I am more interested in one thing and only one thing. The purpose of Human life, unless a philosophy is eventually leading to answer that question, I will not waste my time about it.
Keep the rebuttals coming. But if we can close one item at a time, it’ll be easier for both of us.
I think we’ve close the debate of Low IQ correlating to religiousness pretty well.
I think we’ve closed your claim that from all the known things about Einstein, Einstein was an atheist.
I think we’ve closed what Sanatana Dharma is.
I think we’ve closed what this whole “no-beginning- no end “ thing is.
Regards,
vidy
His response:
fruitless discussion because you seek fruits.
i seek logic.
since you so clearly explained to me what sanantana means, i had to
explain to you that you are being sold a bridge.
does - no beginning, no end- extend to the Jurassic period? did the
dinosaurs all follow this dharma?
so i wanted to show you that the title itself is a falsehood.
it should be called- anta dharma to be apt.
regarding it's history being untraceable- it can be definitely traced
to within 500 years of 1000bc to 500bc.
you are deluding yourself.
reg the village found off the coast of gujarath, the carbon dating
shows 32,000 years bc. not 11 thousand as previously thought.
what was also NOT found was any foundation of a hindu temple.
before you get your breeches in a tangle, the archaeologists
can differentiate between foundations of houses and a temple.
there was NOT one chariot wheel or a weapon or a bow and arrow found.
there were only pottery found. no krishna no dwaraka.
this was during the first ice age and the waters were very much
lower as the ice sheet extended all over the northern hemisphere.
i enclose a map. check it out.
you ask- how does it matter that Mohenjadaro didn’t follow any form of Hinduism. How does that take away the sanity of the philosophy presented in Advaita Vedanta?
the answer- if it was not present in 1600 bc then it started much later, and so
much for the - no begining- part of the title.
you drop names like einstien, carl sagan etc and point to something they
said to support your point of view.
every man said something profound and something stupid. he has to back
his statements with evidence, einstien backed e=mc2 with math, carl
sagan published over 600 scientific papers. did either of them publish'
anything backing sanantana dharma?
this is like saying hitler was a vegeterian so he was a buddhist.
so we are now in agreement that sanananta dharma is limited to
bharath. the no begining no end has a definite geographical boundaries.
funny you talk of lord vishnu. what was he up to during the Jurassic and
kretatius periods? no one to appease him, no one to acknowledge his
presence. it must have been a lonely 4.5 billion years.
you have closed nothing about the- no beginning no end- except by accepting
that the name is a misnomer.
chanakya was no thinker. much like all indian so called-thinkers
he never thought outside the box. so indians never invented anything
nor made any discovery.
in order to discover and invent you have to question.
and that is very sadly lacking among indians even today.
an intelligent man such as yourself refuses to ask- WHY.
too bad you done even want to research greek thinkers.
they will change you to the better.
My Response to the above was point by point, to which he responded back, watch how he ignores all the points of arguments and chooses to just give me some random examples for whatever little he knows about some things :
fruitless discussion because you seek fruits.
i seek logic.
Vidy -- I do too. You've just ignored all the logic I've presented in all the emails thus far. But all the logic in the world is a waste of time if there is no worthwhile fruit at the end. Yes, in most things I seek a fruit. So should you. Logic states that because evolution wise we are but mere animals, and as animals whatever we do, we have to seek something of value, right? If we are not, then I guess your need to seek logic for nothing, is completely irrational. You almost seem to want logic for logic's sake.
And actually you are right, this is a fruitful discussion, it astoundingly is successful is solidifying my logic on why Advaita Vedanta, beats the crap out of EVERY possible" rationalist" argument. It only confirms how spectacularly "Rationalist" arguments blow blind faith arguments out of the water.
you have presented no argument except repeating the same thing again and again.
since you so clearly explained to me what sanantana means, i had to
explain to you that you are being sold a bridge.
does - no beginning, no end- extend to the Jurassic period? did the
dinosaurs all follow this dharma?
Vidy --- What does the "no-beginning--no end" concept have anything to do with the name for this "religion" called Sanatana Dharma? I've tried to explain as clearly as any one can in my previous mail. This phrase has got nothing to do with the phrase "sanatana Dharma". Please do not get confused. The phrase "No beginning no End" has to do with what Sanatana Dharma has to say about the nature of creation. Creation itself has no beginning and no end. As I discussed in my earlier mail, that is exactly what science is saying today. Please see my previous mail. I can provide further evidence of science if you'd like.
this is contrary to all scientific facts. the universe has a beginning and an end. all the galaxies
in the universe will come to an end. claiming to know what will happen after that
can only be done by a mind believing in mythology.
so i wanted to show you that the title itself is a falsehood.
Vidy -- Title of what? Sanatana Dharma? No the title still stands good, considering you are the one who thinks there is a definitive answer to when the Vedas were written/composed. Scholars cannot agree amongst themselves. There are just guess works. See the video I’ve posted below, a few things are clear as soon as a 32000 yr old city is found, it debunks everything right off the bat that civilization in India is only 5000 years old.
the hindu civilization is around 7500 to 9000 years old depending on
whom you ask. claiming older villages scattered around the coast of india
as hindu is wrong. as evidence does not support it.
it should be called- anta dharma to be apt.
Vidy -- Sorry I am not gonna take part in trash talking here.
no thrash talk. fact talk. everything begins and ends. plain and simple.
regarding it's history being untraceable- it can be definitely traced
to within 500 years of 1000bc to 500bc.
you are deluding yourself.
Vidy -- Definitely?? Really? I'd love to see a definitive paper / study on this. I've done my research. You definitely have not. EVEN if you can define that definitive date, which is an impossibility.... considering the vedas and Upanishads were never committed to paper for the longest of times. How can you absolutely definitively tell us how long ago the Vedas were composed without evidence. Rationalism?
reg the village found off the coast of gujarath, the carbon dating
shows 32,000 years bc. not 11 thousand as previously thought.
what was also NOT found was any foundation of a hindu temple.
before you get your breeches in a tangle, the archaeologists
can differentiate between foundations of houses and a temple.
there was NOT one chariot wheel or a weapon or a bow and arrow found.
there were only pottery found. no krishna no dwaraka.
this was during the first ice age and the waters were very much
lower as the ice sheet extended all over the northern hemisphere.
i enclose a map. check it out.
Vidy -- So before I rebut this, first things first, the fact that someone, lets just assume was writing a mere story to sell me the bridge 3000 years ago (or more), some how magically they also knew about this sunken city, that sank 29000 years before this writer's time, that the "logical" scientific people denied all along. That's quite remarkable about this story teller wouldn't you agree? Now that he's been proven right, at least give him some credit.
Coming to the rebuttal:
no chariot, no weapon, no foundations: First of all, you need to get your facts straight, you can start here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92GgpOibSIo (Preview) ;
HA HA HA HA HA. THESE CHAPS CLAIM THAT GOD WAS AN ET, OR EXTRA TERRESTRIAL. THIS IS A HISTORY CHANNEL PROGRAM CALLED GET THIS-
ANCIENT ALIENS-CLAIMING THAT ALL THE GODS CAME TO EARTH FROM OTHER TECHNOLOGICALLY ADVANCED PLANETS AND KRISHNA WAS AN ET.
THEY CLAIM THAT THERE IS NO GOD, BUT LESSER BEINGS AND ADVANCED BEINGS
AND THE LESSER BEINGS MISTOOK THE ADVANCED BEINGS AS GODS.
YOU MADE MY DAY WITH THIS ARGUMENT. HAHA HAHA HAHA.
CHALLENGE YOU TO PUT THIS ON YOUR BLOG.
Even if they were not found: Seriously #%#$#$%, you are a person of logic and science, you should know by now, wood and iron disintegrate really really really fast in open air, this is deep ocean, with high currents (per the video) for God's sake.
for wood and iron to decay you need air and water. under water there is no air.
so decay is halted. that is why old ship wrecks are intact. they preserve it
is salt water so as the air will not damage the structure.
And the more you research this finding (in other videos), you'll find that scientists speculate a massive tsunami/earthquake that might have literally swallowed most of the city. We just haven’t dug deep enough at this point
y
ou ask- how does it matter that Mohenjadaro didn’t follow any form of Hinduism. How does that take away the sanity of the philosophy presented in Advaita Vedanta?
the answer- if it was not present in 1600 bc then it started much later, and so
much for the - no begining- part of the title.
Vidy --- I am hoping you will correctly get back to me on what your point is after understanding my explanation about the “no-beginning-no end”.
What does the Sanity of Advaita Vedanta have to do with the timing of its beginning?? Sanity of Advaita Vedanta, has to do with the soundness of the Philosophy.
here we go again. you with the slogans but no explanation. communism has a word
for this- JINGOISM.
The every day proofs of how science is eventually converging on the fundamental aspects of the teachings of Advaita Vedanta. That is where you should seek sanity. Not "when it began". This quest for “when it began” and its criticism on a complete lack of understanding of what the phrase “Sanatana Dharma” means, is just simply pointless in trying to understand its sanity.
this is an argument? it is big words when peeled apart like an onion exposes
it's nothingness.
you drop names like einstien, carl sagan etc and point to something they
said to support your point of view.
every man said something profound and something stupid. he has to back
his statements with evidence, einstien backed e=mc2 with math, carl
sagan published over 600 scientific papers. did either of them publish'
anything backing sanantana dharma?
this is like saying hitler was a vegeterian so he was a buddhist.
Vidy --- But Carl Sagan did produce evidence of what was written by the Indian scholars. You are just not ready to read what he wrote. Einstein is clearly asking you rationalists to NOT to jump to conclusions on this entity called God, but you insist up on it vehemently, as though you guys are more intelligent and more rational than Einstein himself. And at the same time clump all the "religionists" together as having a low IQ. Seriously absurd “rationality” this. Serious lack of logic here. And really, all these people are scientists. They won't write papers on Vedanta. The approach to knowledge is different in science and in Vedanta. Why don’t you tell me what your answer is to Einstein and Carl Sagan?
that is the crux of the matter. no papers on vedanta or the rapture or valhallah.
we are asked to believe in it without question. every great mind said something
stupid too. they are human. as i said- they could believe in daily enemas for
all that matters. unless they come up with a solid argument. all religions do this.
they present no facts that can be verified. drop big names and ask -if that man
believed in it that it should be true. NO. it is not.
The other thing you fail to rebut is, why did these people, like Robert Oppenheimer and Erwin Schroedinger who were life long students of Vedanta, NOT criticize it, while being proclaimed “Atheists”? They were not rationalists enough? They were not scientists enough? Have you thought about that? And frankly, you expecting them to write research papers on Vedanta is just silly. I am not even going to try to rebut such silly remarks.
again dropping names. here's a name for you- EINSTIEN, the chap you like
to quote as saying something someplace to someone supporting your imagination,
said- SAYING THE SAME THING AGAIN AND AGAIN WITHOUT OFFERING
ANY PROOF OR EXAMINING THE COUNTER ARGUMENT IS IDIOCY.
Lets talk about evidence for a moment. And I am having to write this because I am convinced you haven't read my blog post per my previous mail. The Rishi's of India are saying you can find evidence. And here is how you go about it. But you are unwilling to traverse that path. You are unwilling to conduct the experiment. My simple question, when did you ever go conduct the experiments that Einstein conducted to proved E = MC2 is true? You did not. You just believed a Jew. You just blindly believed what was written in your physics text book. But you question the Rishi's of India. You question their claims. Where is your rational? Where is the logic?
i cannot see pluto either but know it exists. how? telescopes have taken photos and in 2015
we will see pics of it. as far as the rishis go, their sayings havent been proved
in 9000 years and i guess will never be proved. because it deals with the imaginary.
Please read my blog post link I provided in my previous mail for a further details argument on the same.
your blog will be much the same as this email. i doubt if any new ideas will be
entertained there.
Another thing about evidence: In statistics there is a saying, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. In time evidence will come.
HA HA HAHA HAHA. THIS IS DROWNING MAN CLUTCHING THE STRAW- argument.
in just the last 100 years mankind has debunked thousands of years of hogwash we were asked to believe in by the priestly class. in a couple of hundred years all religions will be thoroughly debunked. example the so called yugas. not one yuga talked about the age of
dinosaurs.
You rationalists argue as though science has ALL The answers and ALL The proofs for everything in the universe already.
Let me lay out the logic for the Sanity of Advaita Vedanta to you according to me based on whatever I have learnt (this is the first time I am actually putting it together): Vedanta literally means, the end of knowledge. Why? Not because it has done all the scientific research possible. Vedanta acknowledges that knowing everything is an impossible task. But its called the end of knowledge because, through Vedanta, man can learn what he needs to learn. Whatever matters. Finding out Beyond that is just use less.
Claim 1: The world is an illusion (Maya) -- Modern Physics agrees
Claim 2: Creation has no beginning or end. – Modern Physics agrees
Claim 3: Destiny and Fate are already decided. Free will is an illusion --- Modern Physics agrees
Claim 4: This is a cycle of birth and rebirth – Although modern science doesn’t officially acknowledge it, partly because I think there are no parameters to prove this per the current scientific methods available to humans at this point in history. You yourself have told me about it. You can also find the search by Dr. Ian Stevenson who documented 2500 cases. There just isn’t enough interest from the scientific community to dig further. Again, I think because there is no way in the current scientific methodology to prove rebirth. But circumstantial evidence exists beyond the need for any further explanation and doubt. This concept is the back bone of ALL schools of Sanatana Dharma. And Central to Buddhism.
Claim 4 (this in my research is still a bit weak, but there are books like the “Tao of physics” that talk in further detail by other scholars who’ve done more research on the parallels between eastern “mystic”/ spiritual schools of thoughts/philosophies than me): The literal meaning of advaita is : One that doesn’t have two. Now obviously to go in to the details of what that means, it’ll take a whole book, but to keep it simple, there is no thing by the Brahman in the universe. Now don’t get stuck with the name “Brahman”, the point is per Advaita Vedanta, there is only one thing, whatever you wanna call it, Advaita Vedanta calls it “Brahman”. Everything else that we human perceive is but a mere accusation, a mere illusion. Just like a chain made of gold, is still called a chain, but really its gold. Its just gold really that is molded in to the form of a chain. The deeper you go in to what gold really is, its really just a bunch of molecules so on and so forth.
Modern Physics is claiming something very very similar with the proposition of the Super String theory: There is no such thing as a particle in the universe. But simply filaments of energy that are vibrating in 11 dimensions that seem like particle and these particles seem like larger particles… so on and so forth. Now there is no direct proof to super string theory. Some feel its impossible to get to that because this filament is so small that its practically impossible to device instruments to measure something that small. And of course we can’t even go beyond the 4th dimension at this point. But the essential reality as postulated by superstring theory seems to point to this illusory nature of the perceived universe that really is just the Brahman. The problem is Vedanta is expounded in Sanskrit and a direct one to one translation in to modern scientific language is something no one has attempted, even if they do, its not easy. For example, there is no singular word for Dharma in the English vernacular.
As I see it Advaita Vedanta is getting at least some things right in the eyes of the modern world. Through modern scientific methodology we are getting some circumstantial evidence to the sanity of Advaita Vedanta. You can wait to find out all the evidence. I am not going to wait. Because without modern scientific instrumentation costing 10s of billions of Dollars, Advaita vedanta, through the Upanishads, through the Vedas has come to conclusions thousands of years before modern science. I like to extrapolate. Because if Mathematicians waited to see Infinity, modern life would be impossible. If modern scientists waited to Quantum mechanics to be proved beyond all possible doubt waited in using it to create microprocessors, we would be using pigeons to send each other messages (yeah they used quantum mechanics without understanding how it really works or any proper evidence).
The logical/rational thing to do is to realize that if the Upanishads and the Vedas through Advaita Vedanta got so much right at least 5000 years before modern science’s findings, that they must have got the rest of if right too. So at this point, I shut up and follow what Adi Sankaracarya taught to mankind on how to experience this thing the world calls Advaita, this thing that Advaita calls the Brahman and in doing so exit the cycle of birth and death and thus escaping from the endless cycle of suffering and enjoyment.
In the end if it truly was that someone was selling me a bridge, that is fine, you and I end up as nothing but cosmic dust. Neither has lost or gained anything.
Through logic give me a better option to hedge my bets knowing what modern science is telling me. Don’t just keep complaining and criticizing religion by clubbing all of them together in one word without an alternative. Human logic and intellect is very very deceiving, that by the way is exactly what science it self is telling you. Have you been watching “Through the wormhole” series on all these topics of science and the latest findings?
You are relying too much on something so deceiving, while criticizing and complaining something that you have NEVER READ, bothered to learn, or have a clue about what its saying in its entirety. And this thing you are complaining about was written at least 3000 years ago (based on what you told me, I am actually saying its much older) Where is the logic in that? What does your logic say about this man who wrote about a sunken city that modern science came to know about it 2001. What does your logic say about the Eastern Chi master who who took a massive drill bit, converged his chi energy to his throat and the drill bit cannot even pierce the skin (Super Humans by Stan Lee on H2). What does your logic say about what modern science knows when the same rationalists were so arrogant so as to call an atom and atom in 1950 while calling every one else fools and irrational. If you didn’t know, Atom means, indivisible. That’s it. that is what the scientists said. But guess where we are, we are proving the claims on advaita vedanta true now through Super string theory. What does your logic say about spooky action. People don’t even have an idea HOW that is possible. What does your logic say about what Dark energy is that pervades 96% of the universe without which there is no universe, yet we don’t understand anything about it. MAy be we will in the future. But logic itself won’t get you there. When will we get there? AFter I die? I can’t wait that long. What if Adi Sankaracarya is right? what if Advaita Vedanta is right, what if the Vedas and the Upanishads are right. Knowing rebirth is true, I will continue in this endless cycle. And even Vedanta cannot and will not guarantee if and when I will come in contact with Advaita Vedanta again and understand it as well as I do today. According to Vedanta, even God has no control over where, how and when you will be reborn as.
Is the logic enough?
what is your logic for being an atheist in the face of so much evidence? Especially knowing your life is limited and you will die some day. Where is your logic in not hedge your bets? Not to hedge ur bets is irrationality.
ABOVE ARE THE SAME ARGUMENTS. ASKING ME TO BELIEVE THAT
THE NAKED EMPEROR IS WEARING FINE SILK.
so we are now in agreement that sanananta dharma is limited to
bharath. the no begining no end has a definite geographical boundaries.
Vidy --- Again, please understand the difference. the no beginning/no end phrase has nothing to do with geographical boundaries.
funny you talk of lord vishnu. what was he up to during the Jurassic and
kretatius periods? no one to appease him, no one to acknowledge his
presence. it must have been a lonely 4.5 billion years.
Vidy -- Ok, there are two answers to this depending on the school of thought. First of all you are the one who has a fancy self created image of what and who this "Vishnu"/God is. You are criticizing without learning anything about what Sanatana Dharma is talking about. You are out to calling it names and criticizing Sanatana Dharma having never understood it. so much for rationalism and logic. All the logic in the world will never get you any where in understanding advanced physics without reading about it in detail.
Answer 1: Vishnu/God/Brahman, are beyond space time. You need to watch the documentary: “The Fabric of the Cosmos” by Dr. Brian Greene what space-time loafs are and what being beyond space time means. And what happens when you are beyond space time. 4.5 Billion years is potentially a blink of an eye to Vishnu. I am not sure what is telling you that Vishnu needs appeasement. Rationalism?
Answer 2: Scientists today will tell you there are at least 200 million habitable planets out there in the universe. So I guess Vishnu was being kept happy by them. Let me attach a picture about how much we humans really know definitively about the universe. That is all we have been able to "see" through radio telescopes. Even with radio telescopes, there is still a lot of guess work involved. So don't be so sure.
ANYTHING BEYOND SPACE AND TIME DOES NOT EXIST.
you have closed nothing about the- no beginning no end- except by accepting
that the name is a misnomer.
Vidy -- I think I've closed it now? You are confusing between the concept of Creation in Sanatana Dharma to the phrase/name given to this conglomerate "Sanatana Dharma".
YOU CAN CALL IT WHATEVER YOU LIKE. AS I SAID- EVERYTHING HAS \A BEGNING AND AN END.
chanakya was no thinker. much like all indian so called-thinkers
he never thought outside the box. so indians never invented anything
nor made any discovery.
Vidy --- This is just blunt accusation about both Chanakya and Indians in general. There is abundant information about what Indians have invented. how they have discovered/invented practically every foundation of modern science. I am confident you haven't researched anything. I am sorry, I won't rebut this any further. You can join facebook and subscribe to the page “Ancient Indian Technology”, you will get your hearts content of discoveries and inventions by Indians. There is tons of information if you just Google it. There is tons of information on youtube. I can provide a few links. But a small idea of what Indians and the vedic schools of India have enabled in India over the last 5000 years (at least is on my blog post. “ARe you proud of your country”:http://bhagavatulu.blogspot.com/2013/03/are-you-proud-of-your-country.html All the items I claim on the blog are well researched.
this is your clone talking. as usual no evidence but all hyperbole.
in order to discover and invent you have to question.
and that is very sadly lacking among indians even today.
Vidy -- Unless you research and find out what Indians have found out, this is just plain blunt accusations to which I will not respond. This is really not debate worthy. One thing I will agree with you is about Indians today not working on discovering and inventing anything. I will leave it at that for now. I have a direct correlation between certain aspects on why that is the case. But that discussion is for another day.
where do i begin. this is a whole new discussion. we are good xerox machines,
but not inventors.
an intelligent man such as yourself refuses to ask- WHY.
Vidy -- You've just made another accusation. I think I know if I ask why or not.
EASY QUESTION. DONT HAVE TO THINK AT ALL. JUST ACCEPT WHAT
IS DISHED OUT BY THE GURUS AND MEEKLY FOLLOW.
CHRISTIANS CALL IT -YOU ARE THE SHEPARD I AM THE SHEEP.
And because I still love you :-)... I will tell you in my defense that I have asked why more than most rationalists ask why. You are yet not seeing it. I've posted so much scientific evidence pointing (please read all the emails I've sent you) to Advaita having circumstantial evidence. You are just ignoring it. You some how are not even getting some straight points that I have clearly explained. For example about what Sanatana Dharma is and that there is a difference between what it teaches about Creation having no beginning and no end. IT TEACHES ABOUT CREATION. No one is claiming Sanatana Dharma is without a beginning or an end. We just like to claim that it'll survive as long as there is humanity on this planet. Again, the above presented logic should be enough, that yes, I have used logic to get to some conclusions. It is you who hasn’t asked the right questions; who hasn’t don’t enough research. I am still waiting on rebuttals that have no answers. I am asking Why. Nothing that I have written in all the emails thus far is blind faith based dogma. Your criticism amounts to dogma, coz u are criticizing something you don't understand at all. To ask "why", you need to understand and read and learn what is already there.
too bad you done even want to research greek thinkers.
they will change you to the better.
Vidy -- Now that's a pretty blunt opinion. You've read greek thinkers. I've read Indian. You are the one calling Chanakya names. I doubt you’ve read Chanakya though. Some of the smartest people in India think his social and political commentary for its time was way advanced than the rest of the world. Adi Sankaracarya is considered the greatest philosopher ever to have walked planet earth by many great philosophers. You just haven’t researched it enough. Yes there are criticisms and difference of opinions among some. So does EVERYTHING else in the world including science even though that comes with evidence.
I DONT CALL ANYONE NAMES. I DEFINE THEM. CHANAKYA REFUSED TO
QUESTION THE ORDER, THE CASTE SYSTEM, THE UNTOUCHABILITY. THE
NECESSITY OF AN ABSOLUTE MONARCH. - NO THINKING OUTSIDE THE BOX.
GREEKS ON THE OTHER HAND CAME UP AT THE SAME TIME AROUND 400 BC WITH
DEMOCRACY, LOGIC, SKEPTICISM, ATOMIC THEORY OF MATTER, ETHICS
ETC ETC.
#$%$#, You are still stuck on defining Sanatana Dharma, you are way off understanding of Vedanta. Its not an accusation, its based on your complete misunderstanding as so basic as what what Sanatana Dharma means .Your criticisms of Vedanta without having EVER even attempted to read them, understand them through a learned guru in a native language is frankly absurd. You are not applying your logic/rationalism in this. Would you find a 5 yr old criticizing the sanity of Super String theory absurd? Think about it. Use your rationality. Your logic.
the string theory has not been proved. till it has it is very much like the sanantana dharms.
End of email.
There you go, I think this last response is enough to say arguing further is use less, as like it is with more "free thinkers". Lot of trash talking, lot of evading specific points of discussion, and of course, as soon as I have an answer for something, topics change within a flash like I've not even responded to their first question.
I responded with the following:
You are the student in group 'E', I referenced in my blog post with the "problem with atheists".
You are giving blunt statements and blunt accusations of what doesn't exist and what is not there. Everything I've written is with evidence, everything that modern science is talking about. I just didn't provide it to you, I don't want to spoon feed you everything. I deliberately haven't provided you with the evidence to prompt you to do your research, to come to your own conclusions. But you are actively and bluntly refusing to do anything but criticize with blunt over arching statements. Neither have you answered any questions I raise to you.
You can only make some one see something, if they want to see it. But if someone wants to tightly shut their eyes..... nothing to show any more.
I am done with this discussion.You confirm my post on atheists was spot on. My post almost is now becoming a research paper.
All the best, with being an atheist, you all will lose to us low IQ 'religionists' anyway, for one, we've had the smartest people that modern world knows about on our side two I will ensure you guys lose, 'coz i am sure there is some sensible atheist out there who will at least to prove me wrong with spend the due time to research all proofs of physics.
I am done discussing God with you. One topic we cannot talk about any more.
We can still talk abt movies. :)
End of email
And his response to this is even more ridiculous which was pointless to respond to... just trash talking.. so no point pasting it here.
Now coming to specific things he laughed about and at least half hearted attempts at some proofs:
Part 3 will be about giving the rebutting response to all the things this specific free thinker just like a hero denied without having research a thing.... well as you can see.... even though physics seems to think certain things are possible and is postulating... he wants to now call Physics nonsese.... like, "anything beyond space time do not exist", other things like..."Age of the vedas can definitively be calculated", "Indians didn't invent anything" "making fun of the ancient alien documentary claims"
and last but not the least... for all the things he doesn't understand, clubs in to heroic statements like " all the same thing" "all hyperbole"...
seriously, these people call them selves "free thinkers"? who ever kidnapped the phrase to NOT think beyond available empirical proof. Aren't these the very people that have hindered scientific progress for centuries? They are stuck in their own dogma that unless there is proof there doesn't exist anything. Unless there is empirical proof, something cannot be possible.
This is militant free thinking. You have hijacked the phrase, just like militant fundamentalist religionists hijack religion. Back off. This is beyond foolish. At least do the term you associate yourself with some justice.
Next week I will respond... research... you still have time.
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